Josephine Vistal Gibbs, art educator, art jeweller and designer: Education, Western Culture & Happiness

Wednesday, February 16, 2011

Education, Western Culture & Happiness

Republished from 'Universe of ideas' Facebook discussion thread (all copyrights reserved, contact individuals linking rights)

I have recently come across an objection Nodding's idea that we can know how to achieve happiness through education. Any thoughts?

Happiness and education

books.google.com.au

When parents are asked what they want for their children, they usually answer that they want their children to be happy. Why, then, is happiness rarely mentioned as a goal of education? This book explores what we might teach if we were to take happiness seriously as a goal of education. It asks, fir

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- Roger Chapman That would have been taken for granted at one time!
  
  February 12 at 11:38pm ·
- Lisa Wilson Well I only got as far as page 19, but by golly, the horrible things he says "we educators think, teach and teach" before he launched into a long winded monologue of "religion makes kids happy and moral"
  
  February 12 at 11:54pm ·
- Lisa Wilson I find it hard to believe this guy is even a qualified teacher. Where did he get his degree???
  
  February 12 at 11:55pm ·
- Lisa Wilson Ah, American Philosopher. That explains why it is a book of personal opinions, peppered with quotes from ancient philosophers, religious and "materialistic" rhetoric.
  
  February 13 at 12:09am ·
- Norman Lewis Holt.
  
  February 13 at 12:25am ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Hey Norman please elaborate on what Holt said. I am interested in a fair critique and assessment, not only a close-minded put down of the above article without qualification. I tend to question what people say.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis ♥ I love Holt. He was absolutely fantastic, a wonderful human being. And it is rare indeed that I say that.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs And?
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Children_Fail
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis sorry. i know it's shit, but it's really difficult to condense down everything i love about holt
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis i cried pretty much the whole way through that book
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ok will get back to you after treading.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis I mentioned Holt here because the concept that education is necessary for happiness is quite damaging; children are born happy and free. Education, as it currently works, is destructive to their ability to learn; it induces a perpetual state of anxiety, boredom and confusion, and renders damnit i'm off again now.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  Hey I understand how you feel about that. I just finished reading and much of what the book says has a lot of validity but what are the alternatives, homeschooling one-on-one tutors? Not many can afford it when parents have to earn a living. It seems to me that the only alternative true to his vision is to allow children to learn unaided but be made to feel they can ask for further assistance. In Germany, they have something like this and that exams happen rarely at the very end of schooling, at the end of junior school, high school and matriculation for university.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs It seems true to me that children want to learn what they want to learn but I must say that children also need socialization (see social capital research) that school offers and to be happy, they need to know how to navigate this tricky world.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis I like this:
  
  http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/200808/children-educate-themselves-iii-the-wisdom-hunter-gatherers
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  No offense to the author but i actually question this because what works for hunter and gatherers does not work for western civilization. We need writing, reading & arithmetic and most of all, children must learn how to be a social creatures too. There are so many rules, implied and explicit, children could not navigate this without supervision as in a room with an adult present. It depends to a teacher's personality to encourage the negative or posotive aspects of classroom climate. It exists, you' re right some teachers play one kid against another and more dictatorial at the expense of student's love of learning.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Colin Boyd ‎>> i actually question this because what works for hunter and gatherers does not work for western civilization.<<
  
  I know. That's why western civilization needs to go.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Colin Boyd ‎>> There are so many rules, implied and explicit, children could not navigate this without supervision as in a room with an adult present.<<
  
  Why did we create a civilization that is so dangerous to people and other living things?
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  I am saying that this is good for students who are streamed according to ability, class & personalities but if there are variations in havng any of the above, it will be disaster. For example, my only son (he is seven) plays with a kid who has a little brother he beats regularly, living nearby. I just learned from my son, who tearfully and fearfully telling me last night that he has also been been beaten up. It is just now that he complaining to me because he was afraid noone will play with him anymore. He is absolutely right that children already have completely realised selves but they are not mature enough on their own to deal with more problematic individuals. Imagine this on a large scale for budding bullies and abusers to have free reign. Its unthinkable!
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd It's also the civilization in which we live. Which is an exploitive and abusive one, even to the extent of abusing and killing the entire ecosystem.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"We need writing, reading & arithmetic"
  
  At what cost?
  
  "and most of all, children must learn how to be a social creatures"
  ...See More
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Western civilization is not perfect but it is slightly better than the system where i was born where who you know matter more than anything else. Hunter gatherers society is horrific and frankly uncivilised. I think you are misled into the idealised savage.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Rousseau and his 'something' savage. It is false.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis It's also racist.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis noble*
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I haven't heard of any hunter gatherer societies who's behavior will lead to the destruction of a livable environment on the planet earth. So I guess it depends on how you define "slightly better."
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis OOPS lol. It's 'noble' savage and it's racist as well as false.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Hmmm, I reserve the right to disagree with you guys. The physically weak but intellectually strong must be protected from brutes.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  http://www.cambridge.org/gb/knowledge/isbn/item1157119/?site_locale=en_GB
  
  This is an anthropological text I have studied in earnest. It is not romanticised, it is factual. It tells of conditions as observed on the ground. Peter Gray, whose a...See More
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎'I haven't heard of any hunter gatherer societies who's behavior will lead to the destruction of a livable environment on the planet earth'. No of course not it won't fit in with the green ideology.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Erm. It also just hasn't happened???
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Ho are these observers anyway, white guys observing us natives right?
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis And natives observing one another. I can link you to some of their work if you'd prefer?
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  Brute is a word for 'animal'.
  
  Most hunter-gatherers live in mobile band societies, where the freedom to leave with the skill-set one picked up during one's stay is maintained at all times. There is no mechanism in place fo a 'brute' to maint...See More
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Anyway I know, and have been lucky enough to be educated in the west. I defend what I have been through. Savages are savages, I am not being racists just the way things are because my uneducated ex-countryfolks are ignorant. They don't know that they are not supposed to hit kids or sexually use them. They do coz its taboo but who is gong to stop them?
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  I think it's also important to point out that you haven't lived in a hunter gatherer society that's not heavily influenced by external "civilized" forces.
  
  They did just find an uncontacted tribe in Brazil recently.http://www.uncontactedtrib...See More
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Forgive me, but it is racist to assume that they physically and sexually abuse kids because they are 'too ignorant' compared to the folk in western civilisation, who routinely sexually abuse and hit children and made institutions out of it, and exported it around the world.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I now the research but like all observed phenomena, it invaribaly chnage to suit the obeserver, what they decided they want to find. The brain is like that.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs exactly, they are human being susceptible to curruption
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Also, it's irrelevant if a particular instance of "hunter gather tribe" is abusive in some form. I grew up strictly in western civilization, and know for a fact it's abusive and destructive and needs to be stopped.
  
  21 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis Exactly. But it is western civilisation that has 'corrupted' them; and indeed, us. It is all structural.
  
  21 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Humans are humans, which is why Rousseau was racist in the 'noble savage' thing. The difference is the social structure, the culture. And our culture is... well. It's this abomination.
  http://www.borealbirds.org/images/tarsands3.jpg
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis And it's also everything Holt railed against.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  I am not ignorant of the numerous research. But to use the experience of natives with a different contextual environment applied to those in another is unfair & absurd. The playground is just as complex as the native child in his environment. The humanity is the same but what they need to know is vastly different. That aside, i think that our kids have to know how tough it is out there. I do agree with you that the emphais on testing is too much and being an art teacher I am aware that the extent on how we assess and achild's competence based on academic 'achievement alone is atrocious.
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs No quite everything, Holt is against how teachers want copies of themselves as an egotistical act. According to research we like people who are more like us than not. It would be a mistake to throw out the western way just because of our rejection to reproduce the same unfair systemic inquity.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  ‎>>The playground is just as complex as the native child in his environment. The humanity is the same but what they need to know is vastly different.<<
  
  Exactly. What they need to know now is how to navigate a highly abusive and destructive e...See More
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis ‎"The humanity is the same but what they need to know is vastly different."
  
  I think we should eliminate the need to know it, so that we can stop manipulating children.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Josephine - if your child and you were walking through a parking lot, would you teach them to cower in fear of cars?
  
  If you went walking in the woods, would you teach them to fear bears?
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I get what you mean that we should stop allowing strong personalities to dominate children but we still need to give kids the guidance they need in schools.
  
  20 hours ago · · 2 people
- Norman Lewis I think we should just start questioning it. Not any major overhaul. And then we can find alternatives, as the surrounding system falls.
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs As I said in Germany, students who really do not 'know' slip through the system. I mean Holt was right that sometimes this feeling of being in jail is detrimental to the child's love of learning. Most successful people today and in my experience have told me that they have teachers who encourage them and made school a great formative experience. They survive the school as though it is our version of the coming of age initiation rite of tribal societies.
  
  20 hours ago · · 2 people
- Norman Lewis YEah, I really liked some of my teachers. I think there is stuff that can be done to help make it less like a prison, or at least a comfier prison. But I still think it's important to question the necessity of the prison.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  I had some great teachers too. My all time favorite one, and the one that led me into the profession I currently engage in, was the one who basically let me do whatever I wanted on computers, and just asked me to show him what I did at the ...See More
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs But is society a kind of prison anyway with its laws and the heirachies? Look how long the 'is there such thing as free will' thread, even after nearly a thousand posts. The answer is not clear or will it ever be answered? Even the concept of freedom or nationhood is in question. If adults cannot agree on what it is that brings us together as band of peoples, what hope does children who as research found need certainties at this time of their lives?
  
  20 hours ago · · 2 people
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎'But I still think it's important to question the necessity of the prison.' lol scroll back, I said the feeling that school is like a prison. Being like something is not 'that' something.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  ‎>>But is society a kind of prison anyway with its laws and the heirachies?<<
  
  Absolutely. That's why it needs to go. And it's not all societies. It's just this one.
  
  >>Look how long the 'is there such thing as free will' thread, even after nea...See More
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Colin Boyd Nationhood is nonsense, btw.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎'I think we should just start questioning it. Not any major overhaul.' Yeah, the problem is we cannot agree on how to change the system, which ones to throw out. Some like Holt even said throw out the baby with the bathwater too and be done with it. I could be wrong because it seems to me what he said was true as far as i gathered from the wiki link, not having read the book yet. I will. Anyway, have you read the link above?
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎'Nationhood is nonsense, btw.' How and why? I am asking coz i'm interested your angle on this idea.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd There are no natural "nations". There are just artificial borders erected by people in order to allow them to define people outside of those borders as "other."
  
  20 hours ago · · 2 people
- Colin Boyd Bear in mind, you're currently talking to two anarchists. =P
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  Josephine- I think your simile of "schools being like prisons" is more accurate than you give it credit for.
  
  As I learned in my experience with the underground newsletter I posted above, there are three places in the US that free speech is r...See More
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Lisa Wilson ‎// The answer is not clear or will it ever be answered?// Considering these questions have been debated for thousands of years, it should be obvious it is a complex issue.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Hmm, not sure if i agree with you. Geography is a factor certainly. Australia is an island nation. Notions of nationhood can be very real. I think there is a trend of nationhood when there is uncertainty and in times of disaster.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I think you're conflating "nationhood" with "community".
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  Your mention of "times of disaster" makes me think you're talking about the patriotism of nations after times of national disaster. Of course that would be eliminated if there were no "nations".
  
  Really, there are just large communities of pe...See More
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Interesting. I am not conflating community with nationhood. I meant what i stated exactly. Nations are never more real in times of war and natural disasters. Communities can be virtual. That is why i said geography is a factor. I could be wrong.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Nationhood ties back to the concept of "ownership" of land. In that "we" own the US, and you can't come here unless "we" say so. And so on with other nations. But this is illusory, as the entire concept of owning land is farcical.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman Or reasonable, depending on how you look at it.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs It does. The land more likely own us but the concept of land ownership is important. New Zealanders (Maoris, the original owners) has a strong land ownership compared to the Aust aborigines. They have and it mattered and to say that ownership of land is moot is wrong Colin.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I don't think it's very reasonable to have to pay someone for a place to live.
  
  20 hours ago · · 2 people
- Colin Boyd Especially since you didn't choose to be born in the first place.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs It is disinheriting people.
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Colin Boyd My ancestors were native american. They didn't even understand the concept of land ownership, and thus signed treaties they didn't understand, that ceded that "ownership" to invaders.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Recently oil-rich countries are buying African land. Which side are you on, the Africans or the rich Arabs who legitimately want to buy land to grow food they can't on their desert? I think the Africans haven't developed the land but the traditional owners will disagree.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd And in other cases, such as the Lakota, they aren't even allowed the rights the treaties they signed granted them.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Again, western civilization is an exploitive bunch.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd And needs to be destroyed.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd For the sake of children, and all the other wild things.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Anyway we are straying from the topic. In what way do the developing the ability to think rationally and inculcating the love of learning for its own sake, not essential for happiness?
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I don't think education in western civilization actually teaches you to think rationally, nor does it teach a love of learning for it's own sake.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd It's the rare teacher, that gets through to the rare student, that produces actual rational thinkers.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I disagree, it does to me but first tell me why it doesn't?
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Also, rational thinkers are not happy. Because they look around and see a minefield of danger, created by irrational exploiters.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman Education tends to teach conformity to a large extent, but then within reason, that's useful in itself.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎'For the sake of children, and all the other wild things.' I know that is why the notion of national identity is important, strength in numbers.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Western civilization teaches you that it's ok to sit around and count hours until you get off of work, or get out of school. In order to do what you want. We do far more work than we need for survival, and we are trained to do it so that excess work can be converted to profit by our owners.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  ‎>>Education tends to teach conformity to a large extent, but then within reason, that's useful in itself.<<
  
  For people that want an easily exploitable source of capital. Yes. But it comes back to the exploitation and abusive that is inheren...See More
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd ‎>>'For the sake of children, and all the other wild things.' I know that is why the notion of national identity is important, strength in numbers.<<
  
  No. That is why the notion of community is important.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd You're taught to count things on your fingers. As though fingers are the same. But they're all different.
  
  You're taught to count down minutes on your fingers, although the minutes of you life, like your fingers, are finite.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  ‎'Education tends to teach conformity to a large extent, but then within reason, that's useful in itself.' Thank you Roger. Let me elaborate that there is knowing the facts, knowing why the facts are facts and knowing how they got the facts...See More
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman The notion of national identity is just part of the apparatus we use to regulate our behaviour. It's absolutely natural.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"In what way do the developing the ability to think rationally and inculcating the love of learning for its own sake, not essential for happiness?"
  
  I think the love of learning for its own sake is. Because I consider that to be an expressio...See More
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"It's absolutely natural."
  
  And in a 200,000 year history it emerged only 200 years ago, after the collapse of Rome. Greece: City States. Rome: Empire of cities. Post-Rome: Kingdoms and the origin of nations. Finally you get nation states be...See More
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Roger Chapman A sense of belonging is absolutely vital for the subjective wellbeing of children. It can be carried too far and then it turns into repression. The mark of a successful society is how well it is able to adjust this balance as new factors emerge. Because children are always the future.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd ‎>>Children don't need control but discipline (in the traditional sense). They need to know 'how' and 'why' to learn and just the 'whats' IMHO.<<
  
  That is, no offense intended, the product of an incredibly controlling and domineering culture.
  
  20 hours ago · · 1 person
- Roger Chapman Incorrect, Norman.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman Amazingly incorrect.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Nuh. OR Explain.
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis ‎*2000
  
  20 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Roger again resorts to simple and unexplained statements. I think I remember this from a previous encounter.
  
  19 hours ago · · 1 person
- Roger Chapman I think Nuh. I'm beginnibng to think only time will help you; not explanation.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis It's like we're trapped in a time loop!
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman ah 2000 is better
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman probably more like 4000
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman although in britain, maybe 2500
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Yeah, typo. Around 2000 you begin to get 'countries' after the fall of Empire No.1.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  ‎'I think the love of learning for its own sake is. Because I consider that to be an expression of play, the game/model-based exploration of reality. But I think that is inborn, not the product of education.' The game theory is so good, it ...See More
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis I don't consider City States or Empires to be examples of Nations, really.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis I didn't mean to imply that play had no rules. But the rules are emergent.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman well, we don't know much about what came before that. apparently at one time there was a probably highly authoritarian dridic society in Britain, maybe 3000 yrs ago.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd
  
  ‎>>A sense of belonging is absolutely vital for the subjective wellbeing of children.<<
  
  Right. Which is why community is important. And your point is?
  
  >>It can be carried too far and then it turns into repression.<<
  ...See More
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman Druidic
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis They are of the players, not imposed from outside. They are voluntarily agreed upon.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs The nation identity is not always based on land.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman I think they ate babies or something of that ilk
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis That's quite interesting, will take a look at that.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman The waves of Celtic immigration into britain probably occured for up to 5000 years, up to approximately 500 BC, I think.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Hmm, on second thoughts I think nations might be about territory and culture.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Nations is about a group of people sharing a common culture, united by this culture. The city states do not fit the bill, as they were united by other things, and their slaves had a different culture. Nor does Empire, because their slaves had a different culture. With countries/kingdoms,. you begin to get groups that are held together by a fairly evenly shared culture.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman At some stage, there was a national identity in britain which resisted the roman invasion.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd If you mean "nation" like the Lakota nation, then I can agree. But if you mean "nation" in it's common form, like the United States is a nation, then I have to disagree.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Ah! That's a good point Roger.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman In many ways Britain seemed to be a more advanced society than the Roman, but not in warfare of course.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis The US blurs the boundary between Empire and Nation lol.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman What Britain had before the Romans was a metalworking ability that was probably second or third only to maybe Japan and certainly China
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis And from the way it is constructed, it is almost as if that was intentional o.O
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Anyway back to topic. I really hate the 'play' notion of art education. You don't do art because its easy, its fun (although time goes very quickly when one is engrossed in an activity one likes) and its a bit of lark. I hate that teachers not trained in art education do their craft activities and call it art. Oh its just something not too demanding to relax them. Ahhhhh!
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd It was absolutely intentional. We didn't want to be like you!
  
  19 hours ago · · 1 person
- Roger Chapman I understand that, Colin.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis I don't think play is easy. Have you heard of 'deep play'? People die whilst engaged in deep play.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Josephine - you probably shouldn't read Norms thesis.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman But the idea of freedom seems to be extended too far in the states, at a cost to progress.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Roger - I was talking to Norm about how it seems it was done intentionally.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis I think the starving artist could be an example of deep play. So could the western gunslinger.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman I mean cultural progress.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis Oh shit yeah i forgot i wrote a dissertation on this
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman Well, US music is superb, it's technology is too, albeit rather stuck in the 1930s
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd ‎=)
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis ‎'.... thesis? what the- OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH'
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I still have it printed out somewhere. You know how many trees I killed for you? LOTS.
  
  19 hours ago · · 1 person
- Roger Chapman I could have been a western gunslinger with my ability at table football i might have been OK
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman But killing people not nice
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I'm pretty good at billiards. I'd guess I could carom a bullet of a nearby hard object and kill my opponent without him even realizing I was shooting at him. (Or her, as the case may be.)
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman The idea of the individual is perthaps something that can be better promoted where there is more space, like in the American West.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  play is a self-motivated activity, performed for intrinsic enjoyment and not necessarily the extrinsic rewards. There's nothing that says it cannot be productive/useful, or that it is easy or simple.
  
  It's like... there's a difference between...See More
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd But like Roger said. Killing is mean.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman Each town was set to find its own route to prosperity, and the people discovered over again for themselves that some measure of harmony is necessary.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Please don't move to the American west in an attempt to find more space. That's been tried already and it just results in genocide.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman There's often some guy perched up in the hills Northeast of L.A. somewhere shooting at passers by. I visited Agoura in 1981 and then it was an outlying village of LA. Well, I stayed there a couple of weeks. And now I think it's just part of the LA conurbation, and the people I stayed with are "realty agents".
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs
  
  Play is a self-motivated activity, performed for intrinsic enjoyment and not necessarily the extrinsic rewards. You could be right if the function of play was as entertainment or recreation. But if the goal was educational in terms of art t...See More
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/85/Agouravista.jpg Hmmm, I climbed them thar hills in midsummer. The residents thought I was nuts. They went EVERYWHERE by car. But it's not as overgrown with exploitation as I thought it would be.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman That's a better pic.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd ‎>>But if the goal was educational in terms of art theory or making a masterpiece, then play goes out of the window.<<
  
  I don't mean to imply that you do, but do you actually think one can be "taught" to create a masterpiece?
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs Ah Colin you're one of those who think that genius is natural. Thats alright, the debate if talent is innate continues. Why do we need to design buildings that are sustainable, uses solar power, utilise wind turbines and have the ability to grow food from wastes.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs masterpieces just doesn't happen
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs galleries, art experts and reporter etc have to say it is
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd You mentioned examples of engineering. Not artistic masterpiece.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs for example many old master fakes surface, for a while they are accepted as masterpieces only to be found out later that its authenticity is disproven. What changed? Is it any less a masterpiece? Obviously it is not a masterpiece but a counterfiet. if a banknote is fake then it is not legal tender, money.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs exactly, the appreciation for architecture begins in the sculpture constructions or making things in the studio
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd You're not really going to say that everyone that graduates from Berklee is a musical genius are you?
  
  If it's a fake, it means it's a fake and not an actual creation. Are you saying an advanced photocopier is an artist masterpiece creator?
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs engineering doesn't have a monopoly on the structure or design
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs no but not everybody who loves music are musicians. There are many types of art or design are there? Which music do you like? I teach design and art btw. Also do you think actors and what they do are useless and unproductive?
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I am willing to teach drama, music, dance too. It's all art disciplines.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎'If it's a fake, it means it's a fake and not an actual creation. Are you saying an advanced photocopier is an artist masterpiece creator?' Did I?
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman I could teach playing the jew's harp.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I was illustrating the concept of masterpieces or the artist as hero, (usually italian, male and from Tuscany) in the past centuries. With the superstar artists today, nothing much has changed except now they are usually male and from America or England. good on you Roger, tutor the use of the harp but what else do you do?
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd I just find it somewhat disturbing that you seem to think that you can teach someone to be creative.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Although, with the bias of this culture, it might actually be possible to teach something as foreign as creativity. So maybe you're right.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Colin Boyd Still sad though.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I can teach someone to be good at being creative but if they are going to be successful at it for a living, is a question harder to answer.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"Art education is academic and intelectually rigorous."
  
  So can be play. My philosophy degree was play; I did it for the intrinsic enjoyment of learning and thinking in academic and intellectually rigorous ways, and not for the extrinisic re...See More
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYlcqtyuV848&rct=j&sa=X&ei=ry5bTeekMKqAhAe3moyODQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQuAIwAg&q=jew%27s+harp.&usg=AFQjCNEluONZ5F_mVbA5jQnQ9AeCj3dXWg&cad=rjt
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I won't quibble with you about play Norman esp if you are a PE teacher. Thats what I said I cannot 'determine' artistic souls but I can show the way. ultimately that is what education ought to be, not produce carbon copies of teachers.
  
  19 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis oh shit no i'm not a teacher. i'm building a forest.
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis ‎:)
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis i dislike human interaction, so it would be hard to be a teacher. in theory it would be my dream job... but nay :(
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs I don't blame you, its not easy being a teacher. People think they how to do it better than you can. Wow I like the sound of 'building' a forest. You mean you design a forest?
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs must go, catch you later
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis exactly! yeah, pretty much. just planting things in an order that accelerates growth and mimics natural succession
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis cheerio!
  
  19 hours ago ·
- Josephine Cutaran Gibbs ‎:-) nice talking to you guys, i enjoyed it
  
  19 hours ago · · 1 person
- Colin Boyd I've been gone for a bit too Josephine. But checked in on my phone real quick. Fun talking to you too. Have a a nice evening. :)
  
  18 hours ago ·
- Jerome Ullman ‎"Happy he who hath availed to know the causes of things, and hath laid all fears an immitigable Fate and the roar of hungry Acheron under his feet...." -- Virgil, Georgics
  
  17 hours ago ·
- Lisa Wilson In response to the OP, have you done any research into resilience Josephine? That's how you build happy, positive children who are eager to learn.
  
  16 hours ago ·
- Mike Cudilla
  
  Kids learning starts at the age of 3, obviously it's the parents who give a good example, like simple what is wrong or right, like respect reasonably to their parent or othe people. The more educated the parent, the more tendency the kids...See More
  
  7 hours ago ·
- Gunther Lippert Starts before 3, Mike
  
  6 hours ago · · 1 person
- Mike Cudilla Right, i should have said, their character is already solid at 3.
  
  6 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor “It's the rare teacher, that gets through to the rare student, that produces actual rational thinkers." -> It appears to me this always been the case... When is education not an elite activity? I try incredibly hard to be a great teacher... Yet at most, I teach only 4 out of 24 people.
  
  5 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor
  
  The character is solid before 3... that's kinda depressing, but maybe true. My hypothesis is that children have already subconsciously sucked up much from their parents and environment. So when they go to school, the starting point is vastl...See More
  
  5 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor I recently found a lecture about national identity. It's fascinating. The point is that it is constructed... I think such roots definitely gives people strength. From a utilitarian or "the general good" point of view, this may not be a damaging thing. For individuals who want to live the examined life, however, it must be overcome. http://oyc.yale.edu/history/european-civilization-1648-1945/content/transcripts/transcript-13-nationalism
  
  5 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor
  
  OK, back to Holt: I appreciate his sentiment. I wonder about his conclusion. For example, "children believe that they must please the teacher, the adults, at all costs." -> This contradicts my experience and observation when I was in/teachi...See More
  
  5 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor Ah. Holt wrote his work in the 60s. Then I was partially wrong. His conclusion was probably very true in that period. Time is different now. Again, I maintain that peer pressure seems to be the real "culprit". I'm not sure what is the source of this pressure.
  
  5 hours ago ·
- Gunther Lippert ‎" Yet at most, I teach only 4 out of 24 people."...i think you are underestimating greatly Christina..i'm sure you reach more than that..those 4 may only be the ones that give you reassuring feedback..others, may be too introverted to give you confirmation..still others you may be reaching subliminally, and may not even know they learned anything from you..until (even years) later..i KNOW..this has happened to me before (as a student, not a teacher)...Keep at it kid...you are doing more than you realize
  
  5 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor That's comforting to know... ;-) Either way, it's OK. I confess I'm terribly elitist... I don't give much crap about "the majority", well, unless during times of the "tyranny of the majority".
  
  4 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor
  
  The "society" question... As long as we live in society, we cannot be free. We "owe", or are influence by society more than we are willing to admit. You can even say from the minute of birth, we cease to be free... Even "savages" are subjec...See More
  
  4 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor I wonder... folks like Nietzsche... what stopped them from a radical withdrawal from society; why haven't they gone off to live "6000 ft" above men? Do they, too, have some elementary need for society, or has society annihilated their choice?
  
  4 hours ago ·
- Christina Taylor Now it seems there is only one path to "perfect" freedom, from the wheel of fortune.... the cessation of desires, suffering; Nirvana.
  
  4 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"This contradicts my experience and observation when I was in/teachi...ng secondary school."
  
  That's cool, but Holt was teaching in Primary school. I remember secondary school differently as well, but my experiences of primary align well wit...See More
  
  3 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis ‎"Right, i should have said, their character is already solid at 3."
  
  What evidence do you have for this?
  
  To contradict this, I have play therapy being given to Romanian orphans.
  
  3 hours ago ·
- Roger Chapman <> -- Would personal memory count?
  
  3 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"As long as we live in society, we cannot be free."
  
  Hunter-gatherers live in society and are free.
  
  "We "owe", or are influence by society more than we are willing to admit."
  ...See More
  
  3 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"I wonder... folks like Nietzsche... what stopped them from a radical withdrawal from society; why haven't they gone off to live "6000 ft" above men?"
  
  Nietzsche spent a lot of time in the mountains in a small village.
  
  "When Zarathustra was t...See More
  
  3 hours ago ·
- Norman Lewis But he changed his tune when he enters the marketplace and finds out that people are not worth bothering with. And then casts his fancy beyond humans.
  
  3 hours ago · · 1 person
- Norman Lewis
  
  ‎"<> -- Would personal memory count?"
  
  If he was saying 'My character was set at three", then yeah, personal memory would count.
  
  But if he wants to say that MY (Norm's) character was set at three, then his ...See More
  
  3 hours ago ·
- Noah Harvey Im not sure to what degree scho
  
  2 hours ago ·
- Noah Harvey Ol drives culture, its a little behind the curve in terms of setting pace.
  
  As such, i think expecting school to create a happy culture is a little out of its scope.
  
  2 hours ago ·
  This post will be updated as more replies comes up. Keep your eye on this space.

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